thanks for the soothing

I just wanted to add that the grandaughter of Benito Mussolini, Alessandra Mussolini, is representing Italy today in the EU parlianment. She has been a member of the national parliament for years. A large percentage of modern Italian politicians are neo-fascists (not that they will admit it). So much for remorse...

Italian Fascism

In a remark made on 15 October 2001 during a speech outside Bologna at the dedication of a monument to a fallen partisan of the anti-Fascist resistance, Italian President Ciampi said that the Fascist soldiers who served Mussolini's short-lived Nazi puppet state in northern Italy:

"credendo di servire ugualmente l'onore della propria patria... appoggiò, con la sua azione, la causa del nazismo. Anche se scelte individuali di adesione furono ispirate al convincimento di fare in tal modo il proprio dovere.

Translation (rough): "were believing to serve equally the honor of their nation... which supported, by its action, the cause of nazism. Even though personal choices of (political) affiliation, they inspire by the conviction to do, in this way, one's duty."

Numerous members of the Senate and Chamber of Deputies condemned the remark, widely reported in Italian newspapers. Like most of Ciampi's frequent gaffes, this one was ignored by the foreign press.

just before World War II started in Europe, Italy invaded the almost defenceless country of Ethiopia (Abyssinia) in October 1935. It was a brutal and ruthless invasion in which a form of mustard gas was used for the first time since the Great War of 1914-1918. On February 19/20, 1937, Mussolini's Blackshirt Fascists committed a series of particularly senseless massacres on the Ethiopian people. In Addis Ababa, (which was captured in May, 1936 and liberated in April, 1941 by the British) a bomb was thrown towards a table around which General Graziani and number of Italian officers were seated. No one was killed but after a moments silence one of the officers fired his revolver into a group of Ethiopian civilians seated at a table nearby in the courtyard of the Palace. The Italian Carabinieri then followed suit and in the melee that followed over 300 Ethiopians lay dead in the courtyard and around the Palace. The corpses were then robbed of all valuables and money. Houses nearby were set on fire and burned well into the night and next day. Over the next three days at least three thousand Ethiopians were killed by rampaging gangs of fascist soldiers. During the Italian invasion around 275,000 Ethiopians were killed, 17,800 of whom were killed by bombing. According to Ethiopian sources a total of 670,000 Ethiopians lost their lives during the entire Italian occupation. For this and other atrocities committed by fascist troops in Africa and the Balkans, no Italian was ever prosecuted for war crimes. As one author states "There was no Nuremberg for Italian war criminals". (Ethiopia declared war on Italy, Germany and Japan on December 1, 1942) (source: http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html)

I could not have asked for a better confirmation of all I have written in this page. It is little weasels like Vito (millions and millions of them) that make Italy the horrible and sad place that it is.

Fantastic stuff! You call someone a racist scum and they react with racism. It's like those Russians who used to torture people for saying that the regime was oppressive! Also - what have English got to do with it? Fotios is not English.

...when you are a jealous and bitter lil weasel

yourare a monster look yourself at the mrror

You are ignorant: Italian is a nationality - not a race. You are also blind: my site is not dedicated to anti-Italianism - it deals with many subjects. Finally you are ignorant once more: this particular page is against Italo-fascism (Italo-fascists are people like you) and not anti-Italian. Anti-Italians are people like Mussolini.

Your comment that Italians have offered more to the world than the British is so obviously idiotic and false that will have generations of visitors to my site laugh their socks off.

Actually I do acknowledge that under certain definitions of the term "racism" may be exended to include discrimination of geopolitical groups like the Italians. However, in my opinion, 'discrimination' is a better term than 'racism' when we want to refer to the phenomenon in its broadest expression.

nationmaster data 1
nationmaster data 2

What is interesting is that this data is not very recent and does not include people who have become Italian citizens. In reality, in recent years, and after Germany, France and the UK have significantly tightened up their immigration policies, the foreign population per-capita inflow for Italy has been rampaging to levels above these traditionally multicultural and multiracial societies. If you were just a bit interested to map reality to what you believe you would know that Italy's percentage of foreign population is currently about the average of the traditional EU members and growing faster than most.

So, Italy is already a multicultural and multiracial society and there is nothing you can do about it. Even if the majority of the Italian people were like minded - and they are not (see Note 1 below) the only way to stop it would be for Italy to close its borders and isolate itself from the rest of Europe, eventually becoming a clown circus like North Korea.

So, having settled this, the thing you should consider as a "proud Italian" is: Should I change my attitude towards the emerging global societies of tomorrow or should I wait until Italy fills with Chinese and Brazilian turists (Pay attention: I said "turists" not "immigrants") while I have to count my eurocents in order to know if I can order that second caipirinha in my local "proudly Italian" bar?

--
Note 1: the Northern League commands less than 20% of the vote even in places like Varese (the league had 15% in the whole of Lombardy in 2005), which is pretty much the most right-wing place in Italy. Source: wikipedia entry on Lega Di Nord However, if one doubles this percentage (in order to account for people who are like minded but simply vote for another party for practical reasons) the percentage in Varese reaches the offensive number of 40%

On the other hand Italy is bautiful and the pizza rocks. I am not a Brit but thanks for calling me one. I have lived there and they are ages ahead of your beloved country. I guess it is people like you that are holding Italy back - people who think they can speak for the whole of Italy just because they were born and raised in it by overprotective mothers who cook pasta daily. You are a dying breed though, so I guess in the end it is you who is getting out of Italy.

Well, you see, it was your choice to come to Italy. Nobody forced you. If you want to start a discussion about multicultural Italy, we can do that. But, you should not insult the country, because you are living here. Your article was very insulting for the Italians. I have lived abroad and always respected the country where I was living. If you think that Britain is better, then you should go there. If you wanted a multicultural and cosmopolitan environment, then you ought to have picked London, Toronto, Paris, New York, Amsterdam......Italy is still settled in its own ways. I don't get along with my mother that much, but I would prefer you to leave her out of our conversation. Well, I don't have a problem with foreigners, but I do have a problem with the way you talk about my country. I cannot speak for the whole of Italy, but I don't appreciate your aggressive tone. I hope you find happiness in Italy or elsewhere. But, as long as you live here, you should respect Italian culture.

You seem to somehow confuse 'respect' and 'non-insulting behavior' with 'self-imposed suppression of freedom of speech'.

How I respect Italy? Here is how:

• I am a law abiding resident who respects the Italian laws, customs, ways and people
• I have never caused a problem in the 3 years that I have been a resident here
• I pay good money for substandard services and while suffering by the abuse of public service companies like Enel, Enercom and Telecom Italia I have never been disrespectful to anyone (although the opposite is the usual case)
• What I have to say, I do not force down anyone's throat. I did not spray-paint my views on walls and I have not spread leaflets around.
• What I have to say I say it on my own personal site that I pay money to maintain
• My views are only available to those who are asking or looking for them
• My site is not even located in Italy and is written in English

Also, let me add, that while here I do not work for an Italian company (thank God) and that I bring money to this place (not take it)

The American singer Marylyn Manson burned a copy of the Bible in public. Had it been the Koran, he would be six feet under. Not only that, but the politically correct brigade would be after him. Why is it okay to insult some groups, but not others? You can insult smokers, obese people, Germans, Italians......but not other groups. The problem with liberalism is that "certain" people get all the rights, and others don't get any rights at all. Of course, you don't need my permission to say what you like about Italy. But why can't I say what I like about other races/ nationalities? A lot of Italians feel that they are being targeted by the international media, and I could give you a lot of examples. That is why you got a rude answer from me and from some other man. Like you pointed out, you are entitled to say what you like.........

Your attack on Italy is based on the view that we are 'racists'. That is why I thought you might be another Brit. I don't have time for the Brits, except Kate Moss and C.Zeta Jones, of course. Anyway, let us discuss your charge. The Italians are 'racists'. Well, what you should realize is that until 20 years ago, Italy was not a multicultural society at all, and old people are still not ready for it. Now, Italy has got the highest immigration rate in Europe, together with Spain. In my opinion, multiculturalism is a good system, because it prevents civil war. However, religion causes problems with multiculturalism, especially after the 9-11 attacks on America. Therefore, it is not that simple. Moreover, some very tolerant countries like Britain and Holland are now questioning multiculturalism. Why don't you say that they are racists? The truth is that multiculturalism and immigration are very delicate subjects. Yes, racism is morally wrong and anti-Christian. But there are new cultural and religious changes after 9-11. Therefore, you should think twice before calling the Italians 'racists', because all western democracies are struggling with these issues. Even non-racists are afraid of, say, Islamic terror. Therefore, multiculturalism is a complex issue, it is not clear-cut and you should know better, before writing articles like that.

why does the vatican allow sex with young boys.
this is another italian love , sex with children

the romans had the first and only Gay army

i find this country the saddest in europe

BTW, the first gay army was the ancient Greek one - they were gays, but most importantly they were pederasts. Of course in ancient Greece none of this stuff mattered because it was accepted practice and mainstream (therefore normal). Being gay is not a prolem per se in today's society but pederasty is a big problem for the victims of abuse and the Vatican does indeed help and protect pederast priests.

Italy is, without a doubt, the saddest country in Europe.

It is clear that you are not paying much attention, otherwise you would notice that there are post's on Greece and that they too are less than complementary. So a Greek man that doesn't care for either culture is not so laughable...it might even make sense.

Actually I could have given a lot more evidence on Greek racism than you did (which I will do in a future article). For the time being suffice it to say that one of the worst racists I know is my own mother (which is why I don't invite her for dinner or anything). One thing you should keep in mind however is that there are 2 different kinds of racism. Racism due to a deep kind of ignorance that makes a person slave to certain cultural stereotypes and racism due to an actual educated belief that translates to systematic practice in the social context. There are a lot of the second kind in Italy and the thing that makes it particularly ugly is that these people are not marginalised (as in Germany) but rather hold positions of power and respect.

In this day and age, most of the West is afraid of terrorism and Muslim fanaticism. People have some good reasons to be afraid. That is one kind of 'racism'. Of course, if you put a lot of emphasis on human rights, how can you defend Italy from these people? How can you defend Europe from these people? I understand that you don't like the Italians because of the way they treat your wife. I mean, this is nasty, because it gets personal. Your wife is innocent, and she is being treated badly. With time, the Italians will become used to non-whites living here. Maybe, you are angry at the Italians because they invaded your country. Well, I can ensure you that Italy is not going to harass your country ever again. Italian racists/ fascists are in power. Yes. This is a very Catholic country and our culture is mainly conservative. Then, we had 20 years of fascism and that is still in our DNA. The right-wing in Italy is very powerful. I still think that nations like Italy and Spain are better equipped to deal with globalisation and the new threats than Britain or Germany. You see, the issue of human rights is not as clear cut as you think. It is not that simple. Anyway, I regret all the insults against your beloved wife and wish you a very nice stay in my coutry. I hope you can find happiness in Italy, or keep a good memory of it, should you decide to go elsewhere. So, don't take things personally. And enjoy Italian food, culture and social life.

1. Muslimophobia is not that much related to racism. We, Greeks, grow up in fear of the muslim Turks that live right next to us. The Turks are not Arabs and in fact many look quite European. The racism that we are talking about in this page is real racism, like when you see a face turn sour when a black person is around.

2. I don't think that the human rights issue is simple and I don't see where you drew that conclusion from.

As for the cuisine, yes, I enjoy it and find Italian food, especially around here (Lombardia) to be exceptional. I also like the fact that Italians know how to eat well and light at the same time.

Maybe you don't see it but your style of argumentation is patronising. This is a problem that I often encounter in this country. Ragardless, Italy has a big percentage of decent democratic and freedom loving people - the victory of Romano Prodi testifies to that. I never talked about Italy in general. This article is about the offensively big percentage of fascist Italians in the region of Lombardia in paricular and the Italian North in general - it is not about the rest.
On another note, surely, the problem of racism in Italy did not start with 9/11

Yeah, you forgot to mention Spain in that list. France, I have been to but I haven't lived there long enough to know so I can't comment. I have spent some time in Spain and I still go there often. My wife also lived there for more than 10 years. I have lived in America and the UK for years. Australia and Holland I know only from what I have heard and the many friends from these countries that I have worked and hanged out with.

So, I will make the comparison between Italy (or to be exact, when it comes to racism related issues, the Italian North) on one side and countries like Spain, USA, and the UK, that I think I know well enough. Where relevant I will provide refs and data regarding other countries as well.

First to specifics. The argument about the 5 years for citizenship:
* In Italy, the current requirement is 10 years of legal residence. Let's see what is going on in other countries at the same time.
* In the UK it is also 5 years chart
* In France it is also 5 years
* In the US. Well, need I say anything? OK, just to satisfy the curiosity: 5 years, not to mention the possibility of getting a Green Card after a mere 2 years of legal employment.
* In Spain the time is 10 years.
* Predictably, Greece (still a rogue state in many ways) is in line with Italy in this respect: 10 years. However, even there, you only need 5 years of continuous residence after a formal application for naturalization.

So, currently, Italy belongs to the group of European nations that are more conservative in this respect. However, this does not say much about racism and liberalism in Italy or other countries. This is just a policy that comes to be in order to address practical issues and necessities. For instance, Spain, one of the more conservative countries in this respect, has legalised gay marriage and public nudity.

Racism exists, to various degrees, in all countries. You can see particularly ugly versions of it in the US as well - in various redneck territories. But, what you do not see in these other countries is:

* a prime minister (Berlusconi) whose government accepts support (and is affiliated) with an openly fascist party (Northern League) whose leader calls African people "Bingo-Bongos" (whatever that means)
* political posters with the faces of infamous racists all over the place (like the above mentioned gentleman)
* People handing you "get out of my country" leaflets while you walk around Varese on a beautiful Saturday morning
* widespread overt unfriendliness and patronising behaviour towards non-whites
* the almost universal and infamous "where are you from?" question at the very top of the list to ask people you just met or don't even know, accompanied by extreme overt surprise if they don't look like the respective stereotypical image (e.g. "Nooooo! You can't be Greek") or a souring of the face and stiffness of behavior if their fears are confirmed. If you remember you asked that question as well.
* Extreme xenophobia and inability to deal with foreigners (including inability to speak other languages and/or lack of interest in trying)
* Other things. Many other things...

As, for the "example of tolerance" line: did you say "laughable" before? Well, now it is my turn to say it.

I don't think it would be racist. My personal opinion is that devoutly religious people (regardless if they are Muslim, Christian or even Buddhist) are potentially dangerous and they should be given extra attention while fully respecting their human rights and giving them the benefit of a doubt. This is like doing arms-control checks on known street gang members. It is not racist, regardless of the fact that they happen to be black or hispanic in their majority. However, it is racist, to routinely check people just because they are black while white-scum passes you by, just because they are white.

I am happy to include people like the Pope, priests in general, immams, monks and other title-holders of the sort in my list of people that should be given a double check (or extra attention) while going through airport security checks or other such public protection measures.

If this is the worst thing you could find on the Greeks then they must be pretty good people. I mean, it cannot even be considered an argument against Greeks (or anybody). I could list a number of western countries that are supportive to the palestinian cause. You have any idea of the record of mass-murder and rape the palestinians have inflicted? Why don't you do some research and come back with something better? Btw, I will answer to some other of your comments when I get the time. I am a pretty busy guy...

What a stupid arguement. Or as Fotios said, not even an arguement. We, Greeks, never said that Serbians are all innocent. We were taking their part during that war, and this does not mean that we believe that whatever they have done is right. But they suffered, in my opinion, a lot more.

I understood what you were saying to be something to the effect of "the biggest problem in human relationships is discrimination - of any kind." I may have gotten this wrong, but anyway I was pointing out to you the fact that dividing people into Fascist Scum and non Fascist Scum is a form of discrimination. I didn't want to put any value judgement on that.

I do believe, however that non-discrimination should be a universal attitude and that one should try to transcend discrimination of any kind and aim for non-dualism - if that is not a paradoxical aim. Many people would interpret this as a suggestion that racism should be condoned, but this is not at all what I mean. What I mean is that the root cause of all this stuff is a belief that the people you judge are fundamentally and permanently a certain way and the behaviours that you enact on that basis. I'd divide the process into 2 parts:

a. Recognition that there are people exhibiting Fascist Scum behaviour and that this is causing suffering and conflict. A desire that these people should cease being fascist scum for the good of the people they hate and for their own good.
b. A desire to harm these people and punish them and an inner burning in the person who feels this.

b. being the unnecessary part...

Some of the research done at Berkeley on Forgiveness seems relevant to this. Some of it is a bit hippy, but e.g. http://peacecenter.berkeley.edu/Fall04_Worthington.pdf also contains the point that non-discrimination is not necessarily condoning.

My point in our conversation was that many kinds of segregation and discrimination are not necessary. What you understood was probably a projection of your own beliefs.

In any case, in what you write I immediately see a problem. You use a referential or denotative definition of what "discrimination" is to make a point about its the sense or its connotation.

The fact that you now say you "did not want to put any value judgement in that" does not remove the fact that you do so by lumping all such things under the term "discrimination".

So, what you say still contains, in my opinion, a category error: "discrimination of blacks" is a different category than "discrimination of racists".

Like I said in my first comment, blacks are "fundamentally and permanently" black. Therefore you cannot make the case you make above for both blacks and racists.

As for number two of the process, I certainly agree it is not necessary. Note however that for the desire expressed in the first part of the process to be somehow realized it may often be necessary to do something more than simply remaining silent. In my case, part of that something is this page.

I certainly do not want to harm anyone and although I do feel that inner burning I think that it is a good thing. I will cool down enough in my grave, thank you.

The bottomline, as far as I am concerned, is that you cannot deal with discrimination is a monolithic manner simply because discrimination is not a single class.

I therefore maintain that discrimination of racist scum, pedophile scum, etc. is a good thing while discrimination of blacks, asians, etc. is not. I welcome - and in fact I do believe it is true - the fact that the qualities of the former are not "fundamental and permanent". However, as long as they are there I will certainly discriminate such individuals to the fullest of my abilities.

I did not think that you were condoning racism btw.

I agree that discrimination is necessary to function in the world, and therefore it has value. It was only the point b that I decided was a bad thing.

Did I say anything about remaining silent? I wanted to distinguish (discriminate) between a kind of blind discrimination - that is discrimination not knowing what you're doing and acting on it, and conscious discrimination.

Yes I probably projected my own belief system. That was unfortunate.

Don't you think it's better to discriminate behavours though? Shouldn't those individuals be given the chance to change and be forgiven if they decided to do so?

I agree that they should be given a chance to change. By the way, perhaps you did not realize it but my belief is that racist scum is only scum because they are racist, not the other way around. So, if they turn (I mean really turn and not like many Italians simply make a statement like "yeah, yeah, I am not racist") I will be the first to commend them.

There are violent anti-racist groups in France and Britain. Violent and non-violent. Anyway, if you take to the street and say something racist, they beat you up. That does not happen in Italy, because the right-wing is too big. Ok, let's say that your view prevails: zero tolerance for racism. If you say something racist, you go to jail. If you say something racist, you get sued and lose your job. At that point, racism is defeated. People are afraid to speak out and the evil of racism is over. That means you cannot criticize Muslims either. Again, you would get beaten up or arrested if you did. So, Muslims benefit from the situation. And they impose their own form of goverment upon Europe. No more pubs, strip-clubs, no more sleeping around, prostitution etc. Again, the threat of violence or arrest would be too big for you to speak out. But is this situation desirable?

CMAO!

I, not having lived anywhere in Europe, could not even begin to pass or judge whether what has been said here is true, but what I do know it that the "we will stop hating you when you stop hating us" attitude will get no one anywhere except to further perpetuate hatred and contempt. This anyway you look at it is wrong.

I see nothing wrong with wanting your nation to have some respect, but you can never gain respect as a nation or as an individual for that matter until you are willing to give some respect. It has to start somewhere.

Hatred breeds Hatred.

The British and the French hate Italy with a passion. If you read a British or French newspaper,you will see what I mean. Italy is always seen as a Third World country, a mafia-nation, a corrupt state, and so on and so forth. Why should the British and the French tell me that Italy is racist? What gives them the authority? The funny thing is that anti-racism is used, once again, as a strategy against Italy. Well, whatever the Italians have to say about immigrants, it is nothing compared to what the British and the French say about the Italians.

People do not need ANY authority to say what is in their minds. You are doing the same here - you are speaking your mind. Did I ask where you got the authority from to complain about France or Britain? Racism is a problem associated with Italy in an intimate way because of its daily mass practice by many Italians and certain recent historical facts as well as present political realities; racism exists in Italy even against other Italians that may be black haired or more dark skinned that certain nordic types. Once this whole racist behavior ceases significantly then your claim that it is all a strategy against your country may have some merit. Besides, if the British and the French really hated Italy they would not have been so easily convinced that, in reality, when marching with Hitler you were really against him. So, basically you should thank them for Italy being the size that it is today. You could have easily come out of the war with much less land and rights in the international community.

The hatred between Britain/ France and Italy should be reciprocal. You can say what you like, but you cannot live where you like.

Care to explain what you mean by "you cannot live where you like"?

Italy is more racist than the average European country. This is plainly and easily perceived by any non Italian spending some time here. I have not yet met any foreigner living in Italy that has not agreed to this FACT. So, please don't try to divert attention to other countries. Italy will of course do everything in its own time - however, this page is about racism in Italy and will be so until Italy changes that, in its own time.

I was born in 1977, what the fuck do I know about Hitler? Freedom of expression cannot be questioned. But, I find your views full of contraddictions. You, yourself, are racist against the Italians. When the English lose at football, they say that their opponent is racist. Since they have never won anything since 1966, they use the word 'racist' a lot. Italy is a racist country, but so are all European countries. Of course, this does not excuse Italian racism. Finally, all nations preserve their own identity. For example, Muslim nations defend the Muslim character of their people. So, are we racist if we don't want an Egyptian school in Milan? Then, India, China and the Arab nations all have very draconian rules on illegal immigration. Italy is far too soft.

moi racist? I suppose your definition of racism is something like: "the expression of views that make Italians uncomfortable"

I support the right of every nation to exist, according to its own traditions. European countries have got a right to exist, as much as Muslim countries. Speaking of which, Muslim countries have a strict immigration policy.You cannot go to Saudi Arabia without a VISA. But then, China and India are like that as well. Therefore, it is not blasphemous to argue that European nations,including Italy, have got a right to exist. There are traditions which are unique to all of these countries. Globalism is about destroying national traditions. Notice how, Muslim countries defend their own borders and culture.

I agree on the right of every nation to exist according to its own traditions. Of course things get complicated when you have traditions that interfere with the right of other nations to do so.
Personally, I think that national traditions are a bad thing - I do respect however the opinion of those who disagree and I guess it all gets settled through the democratic process and voting.

Thanks for the link: it is a very interesting article and I will read it when I get the chance. Thank you also for making me feel more Italian. I never felt Italian before I went to London and got insulted for my nationality. So, thanks the Brits and the French as well. But- this is not sarcastic- I will read the article during the week-end. As for the 'uomo nero', well nobody has ever died for singing a stupid song.

the convention is to treat comments that are signed based on both their particular content and the history of the author and to treat unsigned comments based solely on the merit of their content within the context of the paricular discussion.

It is up the user to sign the comment with a nick or his real name. However, using a nick consistently or even at all is also up to him/her.

I understood this, and that not being "anonymous" was a voluntary action. Which really is fine, I was just noting that while you see an "Italian guy" posting, others have no way of determining whether it is an "Italian guy" or 30 "Italian guys".

I also agree that each topic 'should' be treated within each thread (as much as possible), but sometimes one can see better if they have the 'whole' picture, and in addition it is clear here that the 'threads' can get intertwined in context. It would seem an inevitable side effect.

I was just making a note on the less than appealing side effects; with that said I understand why it is the way it is. It has both merit and faults - as do most things in life I suppose. :)

So, this guy posted a reply here that:
1. was offensive to me personally
2. showed, that not only he selectively reads what is written here but further that he has no intention of real discussion as he once more repeated accusations against me that are based on a, I believe, deliberate distortion of what I have written on this page
This basically means that he will not be allowed to post on this site any more. He can post his opinions and views on his own blog that he is free to start and maintain today.

In truth, it really does not matter what I think regarding who should or should not post on your blog. My opinion is irrelevant. If it is causing you undue stress, then take care of it. This is close to you and very personal to you; I can stand by as a third party where nothing said hits home.

your opinion is not irrelevant to me and I am not stressed at all. On the other hand please understand that posting things that make Italians uncomfortable when you live in Italy can be dangerous. I therefore am quite careful and would not allow some anonymous poster to just come in here and try and distort what this blog is about. I will respond to the rest of the stuff you posted when I have the time (quite busy right now).

I was not trying to imply that my opinion was irrelevant to you, I did not think such; the comment was case-specific.

yeah, thanks. His views explain why he was elected, in light of the fact that many Italians believe exactly the same crap.

Thanks for the advice, I am in the process of moving actually (longish one but progressing).

I don't see how my moving is a solution though, as this blog post is not so much about my disappointment with many Italians and the Italian culture in general, as it is about the problem of racism and fascism in Italy. Surely, my moving away would not solve that, would it? On the other hand, I certainly see how this kind of behavior on my part would be compatible with the prevailing tactic of dealing with problems here in Italy: Ostrich-ism, i.e. if I don't see it, it is not there.

you are right fotios. here in italy the situation is terrible and i want to go away from here. the people not only are racist but are religious bigot too. i was born here and i understand you how much is difficult living in north italy. i'm italian but i'm not proud of being italian.

Thanks for your comments. You're not alone in the way you feel. For instance I was born and grew up in Greece, yet I am not proud of being Greek. However, I am proud for not being proud. I am proud that I am not unquestioningly, unconditionally and by default supporting a country and its culture, values and way of thinking just because I happened to be born there. I am proud that my spirit and mind have grown enough to understand how artificial and meaningless ethnicities and nationalities are, beyond the practical aspects of resource administration and policy enforcemnent. I am proud to be a human, self-stripped of cultural, racial and social tags, and open to meet and connect with those who think likewise. Together, we look on and prepare the way for what is coming. The dream of humanity since the first moment of its self-awareness: unity, togetherness, love, progress.

you are absolutely right. but i want ask you a thing; in other countries of europe the situation is terrible as in italy or is different?

well, I could not tell you much about all or even many of the European countries as I have only lived in a few of them. Obviously you need to live somewhere for a significant amount of time before you can make serious claims about the place in general and especially the people of that place in general.

I have only had significant experiences in a small number of countries. Among them USA which I don't criticise like others (although obviously there is plenty of stuff wrong in the US as well) for the simple reason that, with all their problems, they presently represent humanity's best hope for stability and unity. This is the only country where you don't feel a stranger no matter where you come from. Additionaly it is the oldest surviving democracy, a true democracy and a nation that is trully ethnicity agnostic and open to integration (not just toleration) of all people under a common political and economic umbrella.

The countries that I have lived in are:

Greece: 23 years (born there)
USA: 5 years
UK: 5 years
Italy: 5 years

I also have spent a number of months in Spain and Brasil - countries that I have experienced in a more profound way than the typical tourist, for a number of reasons. As, when it comes to this kind of thing, I am an empiricist, I would find it completely pointless and in fact idiotic, passing judgement to the people of countries other than the ones above. Obviously judging international government policies is legitimate for any country.

So, here is my comments for those countries in relation to Italy:

1. USA: A country where there's a lot of racist people. Many social problems and in paricular criminality. Still a country where there's a lot of non-racist people as well. More importantly a country where ethnicity is not important and people, no matter where they come from, do indeed integrate in the local social fabric. One of the very few countries in the world that can truly become your country no matter what your racial or ethnic background is (and I don't just mean getting a passport)

2: UK: A lot of social problems, covert racism, obvious and accepted social classes, white ghettos. Yet, tolerance for other cultures, open minds, people with a good understanding of the world as a whole and maybe most importantly many people that place principles above personal interest. There are racists but they are marginalised.

Both countries above, are paradises when compared to Italy; from both the political and social perspective. Beyond that they are much richer and more interesting environments to live in, in general.

Greece and Italy I have extensively criticised (and UK in many instances) and those articles can be easily found by performing searches on the site. I have also criticised certain racist aspects of the Spanish society. Brasil is a complex case and as I am still figuring stuff out I would prefer to write something after I have lived there for a few years which I hope will happen soon.

i have to say that spain is a good country. the problem of spanish people is not racism but only the lack of political corectness about racism question. the olimpic pic is the example of that. the basketball players didn't want to insult chinese people but only make a stupid joke.i have an home in spain and the people are very open-minded and tolerant. anyway thank you for your advices.

yeah, I basically agree with you on that - if you look into my Spain related posts I also note that Spain is making progress in ridding itself from remnants of its fascist past. Still, racism in Spain is strong although most of the time it is of the ignorance type instead of the malignant nazi type.

I love the definition of "non-racist" that you use. Thanks to that definition, racism is treated like a disease, a bad habit, a vice. "Non-racist" sounds like "non-smoker". Therefore, it implies that people can quit being racist, that they can be advised on how to cure their own racism etc. The definition of "non-racist" implies that you can quit being a racist, that you can give up being a racist, exactly as you give up a bad habit. That expression implies that racism can be cured through education and that racists can become "non-racists". For example, there could be books that help racists to become "non-racists". That's a brilliant definition.

So, since when is killing scores of nazis an atrocity?

Funniest of all: what does a proud Italian-American like you doing googling around for "Italian racists"? And why don't you leave Texas and come live here in your beloved shithole? Turds like you definitely belong here.

Finally: I am happy you won't come back. Good riddance!

(edited out purely offensive stuff towards my family - Fotios)

----

Curiosity got me....

Emeritus professor,

your expressions "shithole" and "turds" do not really reflect well on the Academic posture of this blog (where I can see titanic intellectual battles among primates and Nobel worthy achievements thereof.)

You sound more racist and nazi of the racists and nazis you despise so much.

Next time you have a book on Harris in your hand do not just look at pictures as usual, read it.
You may find that he did not kill nazis but germans. I am not sure you get the difference. Ask around for help. And in any case the real difference is soldiers versus civilians.

I know i am throwing diamonds to pigs but this is something that you can discuss with your bozos here:
- could it be maybe that since Italian prisons are filled with immigrants (just the one they catch and do not release immediately) Italians have perhaps become intolerant and suspicious towards foreigners generally?

Now I really have to go. My IQ is dropping by the minute here.
I leave you with the dummies who may stick around and with which you can continue your academic conversations.

I am certainly not proud of all the italians but I am certainly proud you not being one of them.

And keep your nationality well concealed.
You won't make anybody proud by revealing it.

Enjoy the rambling and the spaghetti bozo.

proudly,
Italian.

First of all why are you so preoccupied with titles such as "Emeritus Professor"? And why does anyone reading this need to know whether you're doing legal research? What's all this crap about titles, university terminology and IQs? This is about substance of arguments. However it is typical. Many Italians care more about titles and appearances than substance. It is very easy to see why they are like that: they have no substance, nor do they take the pains to learn or understand; all they're preoccupied about is sticking a Dr. in front of their name or grabbing a chair and joining the army of bullshitters in permanent dolce vita leave that are taking this country to its grave.

Moi racist and nazi? Going around this site should easily convince anyone with something more than a cerebellum that this statement is an oxymoron.

Harris was a heroic determined fighter who fought back Nazi and Fascist aggression the best way he could. The inevitable (due to the nature of war) civilian victims hang like huge dumbells around the neck of their own leaders and intellectuals and around their own necks for supporting them and for, without any kind of significant resistance, engaging with them in the most horrible, despicable and revolting acts of aggression and intellectual crime that this world has seen.

I heard the argument before. Oh, us poor Italians! We got deceived by the fascists! The Germans took advantage of us! We did not know! Disregarding for a moment the fact that Mussolini was both beloved and unchallenged by a lot of Italians, let's look at what the "deceived" and "non fascist" Italians did after the war was over. Did they prosecute the scores of Italian fascists and war criminals? Nope! They gave them respect, and high government positions. People who had tortured and burned prisoners alive in countries of the Balcans and had aided in the holocaust died in their 90s enjoying social respect and cultivating flowers in the suburbs of Milan and Varese. There was not one (not one!) fascist, nazi or war criminal that was prosecuted by this democracy by necessity. The millions of wronged souls and the shame of justice undone hangs around your neck as well mate, and what are you going to do? Probably spend your life in denial, offending the families of people you don't know. Did you say diamonds to pigs? Professor emeritus you said? Hah!

Did you say immigrants? You are an immigrant yourself you ass! And if not you, then your papa or your nono. Shake your head mate. Something is out of place.

By the way, my nationality is not concealed at all - not that I consider it (or any nationality, ethnicity or race) an important personal predicate. Just browse around - I even have my resume online. Read around and see what I write about my own country. Learn both when it comes to facts but also the pursuit of truth as a life stance. Make sure you read the Guardian article I have a link to somewhere on this page. You may learn a thing or two.

I enjoy pesto - sometimes, when I look at the sad faces of yesterday around me, it tastes bitter.

PS. I am still waiting for an answer to the questions in my previous reply

...a beat down! Seriously? You are going to jump onto a blog and call every person on it and its owner pigs and bozos? That certainly doesn't reflect well of your academic posture now does it? I'll be the first to say that my knowledge on the subject of Italian racism isn't as high as most but what I can say is that your responses and comments are insanely sociopathic. It's incredibly obvious by your "curious" response and your demeaning comments to everyone else. You'll prove it further once you respond again.

You are quite sad, actually... we all know it, I think you do too.

Thank God there are some (but not enough) brave Italians that have the courage to face up to the gross mistakes of their fathers. I strongly urge you to read the following articles, especially if you have read the last few comments on this page!

art 1
art 2

Unsurprisingly, these posts come from the South of Italy that is known to be more democratic than the North.

My Italy and Greece related posts on this blog try to promote these views, enhanced by my own commentary and often embellished by my uncensored emotional or even deliberately provocative responses.