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Italian Racists
Everyone who has spent some time in the Italian North knows a simple fact: a big percentage of the people here are ignorant racists. They are also closed minded, xeno-phobic, ultra-conservative and speak only Italian (this includes the majority of young people). This is the place where fascism was born and having lived here for some time I can see why this historical truth is no coincidence as well as how fascism is still deeply ingrained in the local social fabric.
Being married to a black girl I can now taste first hand what I previously could either only deduce or hear about. I will simply recount two incidents here that will show you why I think Italy should have paid a heavier price during the Second World War, but unfortunately did not; I mean if your mistakes do not have serious consequences you are not really convinced that they were mistakes, are you?
Incident 1: It is a beautiful Spring afternoon and my wife and I are in the sad zombie village of Ispra on our way to a newstand to buy some bus tickets (yes, you buy bus tickets in stores around here). Just before the entrance of the shop my wife is tackled by an Italian middle-aged woman who blocks her way and without any preample tells her: "I need to have my house cleaned. Why don't you come and do it some day?" My wife politely responds: "No thanks!" The woman, obviously shocked by the response she received goes on: "but why?" My wife, again politely, responds: "Because I have no need for your job"
We continue our way to the store while this pathetic being looks at us incredulously with her mouth wide open.
Incident 2: We are in the local Super Market. We have just entered the vegs and fruits section. I see this lost lonely male shopper (you know the type) desperately seeking something on the green horizon. His eyes fall on my wife and suddenly his expression changes into one of hope: "Ah, great to find you, are there any melons left?" My wife, always politely, responds "Sorry, I don't work here". The man, moves his eyes away and puts on his desperate mask once more without saying anything further.
Incident 3: We go to the local recycling station to drop off some old electrical appliances and computer parts. We arrive, get out of car right next to one of the containers but I am not sure whether this is just for computers or for all kinds of electrical stuff. So, while my wife is next to me, I turn and shout at the responsible guy who was like 30 meters away: "excuse me, is this...". He cuts me off shouting back at me quite firmly: "NO! NOTHING!". At this point I am not sure what his problem is so my wife goes over to ask while I continue unloading stuff. I look over and I see him shouting the same stuff to Lica from up close; then Lica tells him something that seems to calm him and he tells her something in a much lower voice. Lica comes back and tells me: he thought we were here asking him if we could take stuff from the garbage. Not surprised any more I continue my work and make a mental note to blog this incident.
Other incidents: How some old Italians view black girls
This is where I have been living for the past 5 years people - please send me you condolences; I need them.
All right then lets try this out...
Well, I see your still in touch with the world in some way...aka the blog. I miss the vibrant and vivid discussions that you have an incredible knack of bringing to the table. Just saw the site is up now. You want condolences, in this case you have them. I can only imagine it is very frustrating for your wife. No one deserves such assumptions. I wish you luck in finding something better soon.
I am trying, really!
thanks for the soothing
Italy
As a German, i need to say that your views about Italy are blattant partial. I know that you´re Greek and if you think Italy a joke, wait for what people had to say about Greece. Italy is now ahead of UK in GDP (2009). For, if i remember correctly, Italy is a G8 country known by it´s cars, food, women, culture aerospacial technology as well robotics (i bet you guys didnt know that). Out of the many problems of Italy, there´re great positive points. At last, i´ve never faced any racism in italy at anyway whatsoever nor i heard any other european complaining about it after all Italians are our European brothers.
I guess you figure it out that i support the EU.
You're as German as I am Italian
Probably you're just another lying Italian posing for a German - I've had a few pose as Africans as well. Of course you can always prove to us you are German (name, address, phone, personal site, they will all do).
Regardless, here's a few points:
1. I do not represent Greece nor this is supposed to be a general comparison between Greece and Italy or any two countries. This page is about fascism and racism is today's Italy, so comments about the "great" financial situation of Italy are completely irrelevant (and it is not great at all by the way).
2. Let's assume that you truly are a German like you claim. You say you were never the victim of racism in Italy. Are you saying that as a German you have been the victim of racism anywhere/anytime? WTF?
3. Never heard any European complaining about racism in Italy? You blind? Living on mount Everest or sometin? The European Commission itself, the UN and even the Vatican are singling Italy out for its racism:
- EC on Italian racism: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/library/PressReleases/53-20_06_2008_en.asp#TopOfPage
- Vatican on Italian racism: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,771223,00.html
- Vatican and UN on Italian racism: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0113/1224262210249.html
These are all nice articles about unbelievable for our times laws (yes, laws of the state) in Italy that are outright racist, not to mention worrying KKK like phenomena like "White Xmas" and "Chase the black man". Italy is a country of dinosaurs.
4. Of course your claims about the Italian GDP are completely false. Italy is way below the UK in GDP as the figures below show. In fact Italy's per capita GDP is now below that of Greece's and the growth of the Italian economy is, and has been for years, pathetic or non existent. So, you are basically a cheap liar.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_GDP_%28PPP%29_estimates
EUROPA ÜBER ALLES
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/6418344/UK-economy-overtaken-by-Italy.html
OBVIOSULY, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND ECONOMIC NOR DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CRISIS (WIKI???).
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I AM NOT GIVING YOU MY ADRESS AND SO ON BUT IF YOU SO PLEASE WE CAN SPEAK IN GERMAN FOR NOW ONE.
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ALSO RACISM EXIST EVERYWHERE, MOST OF ALL IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE. OF COURSE, SOME COUNTRIES LIEK GERMANY ARE AHEAD WHEN IT COMES TO ACCEPTCAN BUT THERE´S STILL A LONG WAY TO GO.
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ALL BEING SAID, ONE CAN CLEARY SEE YOUR BIGOTRY WHEN IT COMES TO ITALY AS WELL AS YOUR PARTIAL VIEWS.
NOT TO FORGET THAT ITALY IS 10 BEST PLACE TO LIVE WHILE BRITAIN IS 25 WITH A CRIME RATE THAT FAR EXCEDS ITALY AND MANY OTHER CONTINETAL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
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PERHAPS YOU´RE ALSO UNAWERE THAT ITALY IS SECOND MANUFACTURE IN EUROPE AND THAT NORTH ITALY IS ALSO THE PLACE WITH THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF INDUSTRIES (REGISTRY) IN ALL OF EUROPE.
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=6649
A blatant liar
So we now know the following about you:
1. You are not just a cheap liar; you are a blatant liar as well. The link you have provided says that the Italian economy has surpased the British one only in the 3rd quarter, by a small amount and just because the British Pound was devalued.
2. You are certainly Italian (liar once more)
Enjoy your GDP. With your population your per capita GDP is 27th in the world soon to be even lower.
Of course up until now not a single argument about the subject of this page or the points I made which you have completely and conveniently ignored.
Italy
- Italian idiot (in Brazil) continued making idiotic comments about how Italy's economy is bigger than Great Britain's based on selected articles on projections and certain subsets of 2009 economic data. At the same time he had absolutely nothing to offer on the subject of this page which is racism and fascism in today's Italy. He is now banned. Thanks. Fotios
Italian idiot again
The same Italian idiot continued posting offensive comments claiming stuff like that by banning him I was violating his democratic right to freedom of speech. Fascists often think that freedom of speech is something like the right to go to a blog page dedicated to fascism and racism in Italy and change its subject to how Italy's economy is superior (or not) to that of the UK. Listen you piece of filth: the Internet is today a free medium of expression thanks to a few countries - Italy is not one of them; in fact Italy is probably the most anti-freedom of speech country in the western world (see other posts on this site). So, get the fuck off my blog and go start your own and write whatever the fuck is in your sick stupid head. You're free to do that.
The truth about the Italian economy today
UK economy overtaken or not, here is the truth about the Italian economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Italy#The_Italian_economy_today
The full GDP accounting for 2009 has not been completed yet. UK was above Italy for the first two quarters and Italy edged up during the third. We do not know yet what has happened during the fourth, but things do not look as good for Italy: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/biz/inside.asp?xfile=/data/economicindicator/2010/January/economicindicator_January31.xml§ion=ec...
Bottomline is the UK has been doing better than Italy for more than 20 years (including the last year we have a full picture of: 2008) and even if it is surpassed by Italy (like it happened for a short time in the 80s) it will again overtake Italy in the future simply because Italy is a dead fish (won't go up and won't go down) and it's been a dead fish for decades.
Here's a couple of things
Here's a couple of things which irritate me:
1. Driving around in my British (and a bit beat up) car in small villages in Lombardia people stop what they're doing in their gardens and stare, as though it was a UFO. I once stopped and asked a geyser why he was staring and he claimed he wasn't... Perhaps I'm just paranoid.
2. They really are ruled by some kind of misguided Catholic morality. They live at home till they're 30 and won't bring a partner home for sex or admit that they've done it before marriage. Marriage cannot take place until daddy has bought the child a house. On the other hand, the streets are full of used condoms and people testing the suspension of their Fiat pandas. How backward is that?
In Ranco, Lombardia a young
In Ranco, Lombardia a young woman (about 25 or so) stopped her car to tell me in not so many words to go home to my country. She first asked me where I was from - I said Ranco (I've lived here for 5 years) thinking she wanted directions or something. She said - no where are you from. I said - England 5 yrs ago, thinking there was just some curiosity about my accent or something. Why do you want to know, I asked - "ma che fai qui?" she said - what are you doing here? Maybe she meant - what are you doing in a backwater like this when you could live in the UK, but from the look on her face, I doubt it. I was so stunned I didn't investigate further and just said ciao and walked off. I should have stood in front of her car and interrogated her a little but...
The role of Italy in the Holocaust and other atrocities
Fascist Italy is listed as one of the countries that aided and in fact implemented, to some degree, the Holocaust. The following extract is from wikipedia's entry on Holocaust:
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In Fascist Italy, a law from 1938 restricted civil liberties of Jews. This effectively reduced the country's Jews to second-class status, although Mussolini never made it official policy to deport Jews to concentration camps. After the fall of Mussolini and the creation of the Italian Social Republic Jews started being deported to German camps. The deported numbered about 8,369, and only about a thousand survived. Several small camps were built in Italy and the so-called Risiera di San Sabba hosted a crematorium; from 3,000 to 5,000 people were killed in San Sabba, only a few of whom were Jews.
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The Italian Social Republic was a Nazi puppet state in the north of Italy, with its center in Brescia, Lombardia. Lombardia is the part of Italy where I presently live as well.
About the ISR: ISR
The San Sabba Concentration camp
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The camp was managed by an Trieste-born Austrian Nazi.
From 20 October 1943 until early 1945 around 25,000 partisans and Jews were interrogated and tortured within the camp. 3,000-5,000 of them were killed, either by shooting, beating or in gas vans.
In late April 1945 Yugoslav partisans prepared to conquer Trieste. As a consequence, on 29 April the Germans blew up the chimney and the crematory in order to cover up the traces of their crimes. The staff went into hiding. Some of them were sentenced in absence but never faced justice in a "San Sabba Trial".
Link: http://www.deathcamps.org/sabba/
The official Italian position is that the Germans (who they call "occupators" when in fact they were their allies until 1943 when the Italians surrendered to the allies with no significant anti-nazi resistance movement until then) are to blame for everything:
retecivica.trieste.it
The death of the San Sabba manager (Odilo Globocnik) is photographically documented here: deathcamps.org after he suicided by poisoning. You can see what I reckon is a smiling British troop in the background.
One can only assume that some of the staff of this camp (that promptly disappeared before capture) was indeed Italian. Italians of the time, after all, much like Germans, were not new to incredible atrocities. The problem is that of the more than a 1000 Italians wanted for WWII crimes, NOT ONE has faced justice.
Some evidence:
1. A fantastic article by the Guardian speaks about the "bloody secret of Italy": the guardian
2. Two lovely pics:
Also some other related sources:
Books:
Muted violence: Italian war crimes in occupied Greece
Of more than 1,200 Italian war criminals (many of them having been active in Greece and having done things like burning alive and torturing in horrible ways hundreds of Greeks) zero (0) have been brought to justice - in fact the country largely considers them (today) heroes.
Articles n stuff:
Italian War Crimes
Italy's Bloody Secret
The attack on the Red Cross
Comments on Italian war crimes in Greece
The Brazilian version
A related course at NYU
La difesa della razza - Defense of the race
Racist Scientists
Mussolinis grandaughter
I just wanted to add that the grandaughter of Benito Mussolini, Alessandra Mussolini, is representing Italy today in the EU parlianment. She has been a member of the national parliament for years. A large percentage of modern Italian politicians are neo-fascists (not that they will admit it). So much for remorse...
Another fantastic article
Italian Fascism
An incredible remark by Italy's president (Ciampi) in 2001
In a remark made on 15 October 2001 during a speech outside Bologna at the dedication of a monument to a fallen partisan of the anti-Fascist resistance, Italian President Ciampi said that the Fascist soldiers who served Mussolini's short-lived Nazi puppet state in northern Italy:
"credendo di servire ugualmente l'onore della propria patria... appoggiò, con la sua azione, la causa del nazismo. Anche se scelte individuali di adesione furono ispirate al convincimento di fare in tal modo il proprio dovere.
Translation (rough): "were believing to serve equally the honor of their nation... which supported, by its action, the cause of nazism. Even though personal choices of (political) affiliation, they inspire by the conviction to do, in this way, one's duty."
Numerous members of the Senate and Chamber of Deputies condemned the remark, widely reported in Italian newspapers. Like most of Ciampi's frequent gaffes, this one was ignored by the foreign press.
Fascist Italy is responsible for the death of 670,000 Ethiopians
just before World War II started in Europe, Italy invaded the almost defenceless country of Ethiopia (Abyssinia) in October 1935. It was a brutal and ruthless invasion in which a form of mustard gas was used for the first time since the Great War of 1914-1918. On February 19/20, 1937, Mussolini's Blackshirt Fascists committed a series of particularly senseless massacres on the Ethiopian people. In Addis Ababa, (which was captured in May, 1936 and liberated in April, 1941 by the British) a bomb was thrown towards a table around which General Graziani and number of Italian officers were seated. No one was killed but after a moments silence one of the officers fired his revolver into a group of Ethiopian civilians seated at a table nearby in the courtyard of the Palace. The Italian Carabinieri then followed suit and in the melee that followed over 300 Ethiopians lay dead in the courtyard and around the Palace. The corpses were then robbed of all valuables and money. Houses nearby were set on fire and burned well into the night and next day. Over the next three days at least three thousand Ethiopians were killed by rampaging gangs of fascist soldiers. During the Italian invasion around 275,000 Ethiopians were killed, 17,800 of whom were killed by bombing. According to Ethiopian sources a total of 670,000 Ethiopians lost their lives during the entire Italian occupation. For this and other atrocities committed by fascist troops in Africa and the Balkans, no Italian was ever prosecuted for war crimes. As one author states "There was no Nuremberg for Italian war criminals". (Ethiopia declared war on Italy, Germany and Japan on December 1, 1942) (source: massacres)
get out of italy then you
get out of italy then you fuck you and your nigger wife i hope your house is set on fire with you both inside it.
Thank you
I could not have asked for a better confirmation of all I have written in this page. It is little weasels like Vito (millions and millions of them) that make Italy the horrible and sad place that it is.
Fantastic stuff!
Fantastic stuff! You call someone a racist scum and they react with racism. It's like those Russians who used to torture people for saying that the regime was oppressive! Also - what have English got to do with it? Fotios is not English.
It is always about the British or the Americans...
...when you are a jealous and bitter lil weasel
your a sad piece of shit
yourare a monster look yourself at the mrror
who? You?
Wops. Gotta love 'em.
reply
why is your site devoted to anti italianism i think its you who are racist if you dont like italy don't go the reason we are so racist is because of people like you who more than likely have aids and who knows what else? we as italians have given the world: dean martin frank sinatra the best food cars the best football the best films and actors. what have the english have done apart from being drug taking idiots? if anyone wants to take this up in more detail with me and has msn messenger feel free to add me and we will have this converstaion in more depth.
You are ignorant
You are ignorant: Italian is a nationality - not a race. You are also blind: my site is not dedicated to anti-Italianism - it deals with many subjects. Finally you are ignorant once more: this particular page is against Italo-fascism (Italo-fascists are people like you) and not anti-Italian. Anti-Italians are people like Mussolini.
Your comment that Italians have offered more to the world than the British is so obviously idiotic and false that will have generations of visitors to my site laugh their socks off.
Racism Definition
Actually I do acknowledge that under certain definitions of the term "racism" may be exended to include discrimination of geopolitical groups like the Italians. However, in my opinion, 'discrimination' is a better term than 'racism' when we want to refer to the phenomenon in its broadest expression.
Hey, man! shut up! Your
Hey, man! shut up! Your anti-italianism is so stupid. I'm proud to be Italian and I really hope we'll never become a multicultural and multiracial society. And what's wrong about speaking only Italian? How many languages do you speak?
read it and weep
nationmaster data 1
nationmaster data 2
What is interesting is that this data is not very recent and does not include people who have become Italian citizens. In reality, in recent years, and after Germany, France and the UK have significantly tightened up their immigration policies, the foreign population per-capita inflow for Italy has been rampaging to levels above these traditionally multicultural and multiracial societies. If you were just a bit interested to map reality to what you believe you would know that Italy's percentage of foreign population is currently about the average of the traditional EU members and growing faster than most.
So, Italy is already a multicultural and multiracial society and there is nothing you can do about it. Even if the majority of the Italian people were like minded - and they are not (see Note 1 below) the only way to stop it would be for Italy to close its borders and isolate itself from the rest of Europe, eventually becoming a clown circus like North Korea.
So, having settled this, the thing you should consider as a "proud Italian" is: Should I change my attitude towards the emerging global societies of tomorrow or should I wait until Italy fills with Chinese and Brazilian turists (Pay attention: I said "turists" not "immigrants") while I have to count my eurocents in order to know if I can order that second caipirinha in my local "proudly Italian" bar?
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Note 1: the Northern League commands less than 20% of the vote even in places like Varese (the league had 15% in the whole of Lombardy in 2005), which is pretty much the most right-wing place in Italy. Source: wikipedia entry on Lega Di Nord However, if one doubles this percentage (in order to account for people who are like minded but simply vote for another party for practical reasons) the percentage in Varese reaches the offensive number of 40%
Dedicated to all people who
Dedicated to all people who always criticise Italy and Italians..
The only language we want to speak is Italian, because we are in Italy... that's obvious and easy to understand!!! And if you don't like our customs and culture, just stay in your place to share bananas, peanuts and coconuts with your similar bingo bongo!
Italy, unlike most other countries in Europe, has a very strong identity, which is known all over the world. Italy is holding on to its culture and traditions despite massive infiltration from other parts of the world, and it should be praised, not critisised for this. Look at (Great) Britain these days. Not Great any more in any sense of the word due to its misguided embracing of multiculturalism. What is left in England that is 'English'? hardly anything. And that is a great shame.Great Britian was once a Great Empire, now look at it. Italy and Italians should be proud to keep their identity strong and should not permit outsiders to try to change it.
Mussolini was right. Unfortunately, generations have learnt in school that he and Fascism were very bad things, but anyone with any intelligence who actually knows anything about Mussolini and Fascism, they will understand that the whole point of it was to keep Italy true to itself. And be strong.
Anyway, viva il Duce, viva l'Italia!
So, you mean Italy is strong?
cuz looks to me like you've lost all wars you were involved in (wars that you actually started yourselves), and although, by your admission, you have always been fascists, Italy has been declining all these years. In the 60s and 70s you were respected, today you are a joke. No ideas, no power, no competivive spirit; just an endless parade of zombie clowns on rusty bikes. Wake up and smell the coffee Duce! Your country is going to hell and people like you are the reason.
I don't like you
I don't think you should live in Italy at all. Look, in Europe there are 25 nations, just move to a different one. You are not welcome. You are not wanted. Get out of my beautiful country. You pollute the atmosphere.
I am surprised
When in Rome, do as the Romans. You have got a massive chip on your shoulder, man. Go back to your country ASAP.
Disappointing
I am disappointed by your article. Like all Brits, you think you were born with a better pot to piss in. If you don't like Italy, don't go there.
I just don't like many Italians
On the other hand Italy is bautiful and the pizza rocks. I am not a Brit but thanks for calling me one. I have lived there and they are ages ahead of your beloved country. I guess it is people like you that are holding Italy back - people who think they can speak for the whole of Italy just because they were born and raised in it by overprotective mothers who cook pasta daily. You are a dying breed though, so I guess in the end it is you who is getting out of Italy.
When in Rome, do as the Romans
Well, you see, it was your choice to come to Italy. Nobody forced you. If you want to start a discussion about multicultural Italy, we can do that. But, you should not insult the country, because you are living here. Your article was very insulting for the Italians. I have lived abroad and always respected the country where I was living. If you think that Britain is better, then you should go there. If you wanted a multicultural and cosmopolitan environment, then you ought to have picked London, Toronto, Paris, New York, Amsterdam......Italy is still settled in its own ways. I don't get along with my mother that much, but I would prefer you to leave her out of our conversation. Well, I don't have a problem with foreigners, but I do have a problem with the way you talk about my country. I cannot speak for the whole of Italy, but I don't appreciate your aggressive tone. I hope you find happiness in Italy or elsewhere. But, as long as you live here, you should respect Italian culture.
I am respectful of Italy
You seem to somehow confuse 'respect' and 'non-insulting behavior' with 'self-imposed suppression of freedom of speech'.
How I respect Italy? Here is how:
Also, let me add, that while here I do not work for an Italian company (thank God) and that I bring money to this place (not take it)
Freedom of speech
The American singer Marylyn Manson burned a copy of the Bible in public. Had it been the Koran, he would be six feet under. Not only that, but the politically correct brigade would be after him. Why is it okay to insult some groups, but not others? You can insult smokers, obese people, Germans, Italians......but not other groups. The problem with liberalism is that "certain" people get all the rights, and others don't get any rights at all. Of course, you don't need my permission to say what you like about Italy. But why can't I say what I like about other races/ nationalities? A lot of Italians feel that they are being targeted by the international media, and I could give you a lot of examples. That is why you got a rude answer from me and from some other man. Like you pointed out, you are entitled to say what you like.........
Multiculturalism
Your attack on Italy is based on the view that we are 'racists'. That is why I thought you might be another Brit. I don't have time for the Brits, except Kate Moss and C.Zeta Jones, of course. Anyway, let us discuss your charge. The Italians are 'racists'. Well, what you should realize is that until 20 years ago, Italy was not a multicultural society at all, and old people are still not ready for it. Now, Italy has got the highest immigration rate in Europe, together with Spain. In my opinion, multiculturalism is a good system, because it prevents civil war. However, religion causes problems with multiculturalism, especially after the 9-11 attacks on America. Therefore, it is not that simple. Moreover, some very tolerant countries like Britain and Holland are now questioning multiculturalism. Why don't you say that they are racists? The truth is that multiculturalism and immigration are very delicate subjects. Yes, racism is morally wrong and anti-Christian. But there are new cultural and religious changes after 9-11. Therefore, you should think twice before calling the Italians 'racists', because all western democracies are struggling with these issues. Even non-racists are afraid of, say, Islamic terror. Therefore, multiculturalism is a complex issue, it is not clear-cut and you should know better, before writing articles like that.
Where are you from?
And why do you despize Italian society? I am sorry but, if you don't like Italy, it would be better for you to go back to your country.
why does the vatican allow sex with young boys !
why does the vatican allow sex with young boys.
this is another italian love , sex with children
the romans had the first and only Gay army
i find this country the saddest in europe
yes, good question
BTW, the first gay army was the ancient Greek one - they were gays, but most importantly they were pederasts. Of course in ancient Greece none of this stuff mattered because it was accepted practice and mainstream (therefore normal). Being gay is not a prolem per se in today's society but pederasty is a big problem for the victims of abuse and the Vatican does indeed help and protect pederast priests.
Italy is, without a doubt, the saddest country in Europe.
My views on race
Immigrants: I respect immigrants,because they are honest and hard-working. However,I do not support 100% open-borders.
Multiculturalism: it is a good system, because it is the only option
Muslims: I don't really like them.
Laughable
A Greek man says that Italy is racist: that is laughable. See how the Greek costal guard shoots immigrants. In any case, if you don't like Italy, get out.
Not so laughable
It is clear that you are not paying much attention, otherwise you would notice that there are post's on Greece and that they too are less than complementary. So a Greek man that doesn't care for either culture is not so laughable...it might even make sense.
Greek Racists
According to Amnesty International, immigrants are routinely abused by the Greek authorities. In particular, the human rights of the Albanians are violated on a daily basis. The same goes for gypsies. While I oppose 100% open-borders, this treatment of immigrants and minorities from the Greek authorities is despicable. After a football game between Greece and Albania, some Albanians were badly hurt by Greek supporters. You pick on the Italians, but that is nothing compared to your country.
I concur
Actually I could have given a lot more evidence on Greek racism than you did (which I will do in a future article). For the time being suffice it to say that one of the worst racists I know is my own mother (which is why I don't invite her for dinner or anything). One thing you should keep in mind however is that there are 2 different kinds of racism. Racism due to a deep kind of ignorance that makes a person slave to certain cultural stereotypes and racism due to an actual educated belief that translates to systematic practice in the social context. There are a lot of the second kind in Italy and the thing that makes it particularly ugly is that these people are not marginalised (as in Germany) but rather hold positions of power and respect.
Don't take things personally
In this day and age, most of the West is afraid of terrorism and Muslim fanaticism. People have some good reasons to be afraid. That is one kind of 'racism'. Of course, if you put a lot of emphasis on human rights, how can you defend Italy from these people? How can you defend Europe from these people? I understand that you don't like the Italians because of the way they treat your wife. I mean, this is nasty, because it gets personal. Your wife is innocent, and she is being treated badly. With time, the Italians will become used to non-whites living here. Maybe, you are angry at the Italians because they invaded your country. Well, I can ensure you that Italy is not going to harass your country ever again. Italian racists/ fascists are in power. Yes. This is a very Catholic country and our culture is mainly conservative. Then, we had 20 years of fascism and that is still in our DNA. The right-wing in Italy is very powerful. I still think that nations like Italy and Spain are better equipped to deal with globalisation and the new threats than Britain or Germany. You see, the issue of human rights is not as clear cut as you think. It is not that simple. Anyway, I regret all the insults against your beloved wife and wish you a very nice stay in my coutry. I hope you can find happiness in Italy, or keep a good memory of it, should you decide to go elsewhere. So, don't take things personally. And enjoy Italian food, culture and social life.
I have only two problems with what you said
1. Muslimophobia is not that much related to racism. We, Greeks, grow up in fear of the muslim Turks that live right next to us. The Turks are not Arabs and in fact many look quite European. The racism that we are talking about in this page is real racism, like when you see a face turn sour when a black person is around.
2. I don't think that the human rights issue is simple and I don't see where you drew that conclusion from.
As for the cuisine, yes, I enjoy it and find Italian food, especially around here (Lombardia) to be exceptional. I also like the fact that Italians know how to eat well and light at the same time.
The solution
What you see now in Italy is a result of fear. The fear started on 9-11 in New York. You see, things get confused out there. Christians and Jews are being attacked all over the world. An Italian nun got killed in Somalia. Hence our racism. Christian churches get burned down, priests are killed....that is why you feel that the Italians are racists. They are scared of what is going on. I am sure other countries feel the same way. Muslims are making things difficult. Believe it or not, I do feel sorry for your bad experiences in Italy and for the way your wife is treated. Let us face it: in Russia or Germany, there would be more dangers for a non-white person. Of course, that does not excuse anything. Only one advice: take it easy. If you say things like: "the Italians are ignorant", you will encounter hostility. I get aggressive when I hear that. The French and the Brits attack us and then they wonder if we shout back. I can ensure you that nobody will harass you and your wife. It is only when you start insulting the Italians that they will turn nasty. Try to enjoy the Italian life-style. Things are not as bad as you think. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time in this fantastic country called Italy. Don't be aggressive: the Italians are not enemies.
Can we be a tad less patronising?
Maybe you don't see it but your style of argumentation is patronising. This is a problem that I often encounter in this country. Ragardless, Italy has a big percentage of decent democratic and freedom loving people - the victory of Romano Prodi testifies to that. I never talked about Italy in general. This article is about the offensively big percentage of fascist Italians in the region of Lombardia in paricular and the Italian North in general - it is not about the rest.
On another note, surely, the problem of racism in Italy did not start with 9/11
Liberalism and 9/11
What do America, Britain, France, Australia and Holland have in common? They all felt the consequences of 9/11 and they are all trying to find alternatives to their own multicultural systems. After 9/11, it has become much more difficult for a nation to be liberal. Of course, Italy has never been liberal, but, if you look at our problems, they are not very different from the ones you see in other western countries. Considering that Italy is a small country and that it has the highest immigration-rate in Europe, thinngs are not even going too badly. There are countries which adopted liberalism many years ago, and even they are trying to find alternatives now. When the French and the Brits claim that 'Italy is racist', that makes me laugh. Every nation has got a problem with liberalism in this time and age. I, myself, have travelled extensively, speak 3 languages and read foreign newspapers. But, today, nobody is in a good position to say that Italy is racist. Why don't other countries open up their borders? We Italians have the most open borders in Europe. Why do they all introduce citizenship tests? The truth is, my dear Greek friend, that we live in difficult times. And nobody knows where this situation is leading us. To be honest with you, Brits, French and Germans should mind their own business. In Germany, there are Turks and Greeks who have been there for 40 years and still don't have the citizenship. In Italy, 5 years will soon become sufficient for the citizenship. Therefore, these so-called liberal Europeans should keep their mouth shut. By comparison, Italy is an example of tolerance.
Hmmmmm...
Yeah, you forgot to mention Spain in that list. France, I have been to but I haven't lived there long enough to know so I can't comment. I have spent some time in Spain and I still go there often. My wife also lived there for more than 10 years. I have lived in America and the UK for years. Australia and Holland I know only from what I have heard and the many friends from these countries that I have worked and hanged out with.
So, I will make the comparison between Italy (or to be exact, when it comes to racism related issues, the Italian North) on one side and countries like Spain, USA, and the UK, that I think I know well enough. Where relevant I will provide refs and data regarding other countries as well.
First to specifics. The argument about the 5 years for citizenship:
* In Italy, the current requirement is 10 years of legal residence. Let's see what is going on in other countries at the same time.
* In the UK it is also 5 years chart
* In France it is also 5 years
* In the US. Well, need I say anything? OK, just to satisfy the curiosity: 5 years, not to mention the possibility of getting a Green Card after a mere 2 years of legal employment.
* In Spain the time is 10 years.
* Predictably, Greece (still a rogue state in many ways) is in line with Italy in this respect: 10 years. However, even there, you only need 5 years of continuous residence after a formal application for naturalization.
So, currently, Italy belongs to the group of European nations that are more conservative in this respect. However, this does not say much about racism and liberalism in Italy or other countries. This is just a policy that comes to be in order to address practical issues and necessities. For instance, Spain, one of the more conservative countries in this respect, has legalised gay marriage and public nudity.
Racism exists, to various degrees, in all countries. You can see particularly ugly versions of it in the US as well - in various redneck territories. But, what you do not see in these other countries is:
* a prime minister (Berlusconi) whose government accepts support (and is affiliated) with an openly fascist party (Northern League) whose leader calls African people "Bingo-Bongos" (whatever that means)
* political posters with the faces of infamous racists all over the place (like the above mentioned gentleman)
* People handing you "get out of my country" leaflets while you walk around Varese on a beautiful Saturday morning
* widespread overt unfriendliness and patronising behaviour towards non-whites
* the almost universal and infamous "where are you from?" question at the very top of the list to ask people you just met or don't even know, accompanied by extreme overt surprise if they don't look like the respective stereotypical image (e.g. "Nooooo! You can't be Greek") or a souring of the face and stiffness of behavior if their fears are confirmed. If you remember you asked that question as well.
* Extreme xenophobia and inability to deal with foreigners (including inability to speak other languages and/or lack of interest in trying)
* Other things. Many other things...
As, for the "example of tolerance" line: did you say "laughable" before? Well, now it is my turn to say it.
And now a question for you
Is it racist to be suspicious of Muslims? Racism is usually associated with color or race. The point is that we hear of threats coming from the Muslim world, virtually every day. There is no doubt that strict Muslims have a tough time getting on with non-Muslims. Under the circumstances, would it be racist to be careful with Muslims?
my answer...
I don't think it would be racist. My personal opinion is that devoutly religious people (regardless if they are Muslim, Christian or even Buddhist) are potentially dangerous and they should be given extra attention while fully respecting their human rights and giving them the benefit of a doubt. This is like doing arms-control checks on known street gang members. It is not racist, regardless of the fact that they happen to be black or hispanic in their majority. However, it is racist, to routinely check people just because they are black while white-scum passes you by, just because they are white.
I am happy to include people like the Pope, priests in general, immams, monks and other title-holders of the sort in my list of people that should be given a double check (or extra attention) while going through airport security checks or other such public protection measures.
Thank you for your answer
Is there a contradiction between saying "I respect immigrants" and "I don't like Muslims"?
Serbia
I have noticed that Greeks are, generally, pro-Serbian. Considering the Serbian record of rape and mass-murder, that does not say much for the Greeks.
heh
If this is the worst thing you could find on the Greeks then they must be pretty good people. I mean, it cannot even be considered an argument against Greeks (or anybody). I could list a number of western countries that are supportive to the palestinian cause. You have any idea of the record of mass-murder and rape the palestinians have inflicted? Why don't you do some research and come back with something better? Btw, I will answer to some other of your comments when I get the time. I am a pretty busy guy...
What a stupid arguement. Or
What a stupid arguement. Or as Fotios said, not even an arguement. We, Greeks, never said that Serbians are all innocent. We were taking their part during that war, and this does not mean that we believe that whatever they have done is right. But they suffered, in my opinion, a lot more.
The essense of segregation
A good friend, during a conversation about segregation, implicitly claimed that segregating people on the basis of them being racists or not is as bad, or at least comparable, to segregating them on the basis of being black or white.
He obviously was referring to this article where although I do not talk of segregation of fascists per se, I certainly do call a certain group of people "racist scum" which implies acceptance of (or even entails) segregatory behavior towards them.
His claim struck me as prima facie absurd, but I did not find the occasion opportune for taking the discussion any further; so, I will do it here and send him the link to comment on it.
Why absurd? For the same reason that it is absurd to talk about segregation of say pedophiles being bad (btw, pedophiles are not necessarily "child rapists", they are just people who would love to have sex with your children but may have never tried it).
I understood what you were
I understood what you were saying to be something to the effect of "the biggest problem in human relationships is discrimination - of any kind." I may have gotten this wrong, but anyway I was pointing out to you the fact that dividing people into Fascist Scum and non Fascist Scum is a form of discrimination. I didn't want to put any value judgement on that.
I do believe, however that non-discrimination should be a universal attitude and that one should try to transcend discrimination of any kind and aim for non-dualism - if that is not a paradoxical aim. Many people would interpret this as a suggestion that racism should be condoned, but this is not at all what I mean. What I mean is that the root cause of all this stuff is a belief that the people you judge are fundamentally and permanently a certain way and the behaviours that you enact on that basis. I'd divide the process into 2 parts:
a. Recognition that there are people exhibiting Fascist Scum behaviour and that this is causing suffering and conflict. A desire that these people should cease being fascist scum for the good of the people they hate and for their own good.
b. A desire to harm these people and punish them and an inner burning in the person who feels this.
b. being the unnecessary part...
Some of the research done at Berkeley on Forgiveness seems relevant to this. Some of it is a bit hippy, but e.g. http://peacecenter.berkeley.edu/Fall04_Worthington.pdf also contains the point that non-discrimination is not necessarily condoning.
Thanks for the comments
My point in our conversation was that many kinds of segregation and discrimination are not necessary. What you understood was probably a projection of your own beliefs.
In any case, in what you write I immediately see a problem. You use a referential or denotative definition of what "discrimination" is to make a point about its the sense or its connotation.
The fact that you now say you "did not want to put any value judgement in that" does not remove the fact that you do so by lumping all such things under the term "discrimination".
So, what you say still contains, in my opinion, a category error: "discrimination of blacks" is a different category than "discrimination of racists".
Like I said in my first comment, blacks are "fundamentally and permanently" black. Therefore you cannot make the case you make above for both blacks and racists.
As for number two of the process, I certainly agree it is not necessary. Note however that for the desire expressed in the first part of the process to be somehow realized it may often be necessary to do something more than simply remaining silent. In my case, part of that something is this page.
I certainly do not want to harm anyone and although I do feel that inner burning I think that it is a good thing. I will cool down enough in my grave, thank you.
The bottomline, as far as I am concerned, is that you cannot deal with discrimination is a monolithic manner simply because discrimination is not a single class.
I therefore maintain that discrimination of racist scum, pedophile scum, etc. is a good thing while discrimination of blacks, asians, etc. is not. I welcome - and in fact I do believe it is true - the fact that the qualities of the former are not "fundamental and permanent". However, as long as they are there I will certainly discriminate such individuals to the fullest of my abilities.
I did not think that you were condoning racism btw.
I agree that discrimination
I agree that discrimination is necessary to function in the world, and therefore it has value. It was only the point b that I decided was a bad thing.
Did I say anything about remaining silent? I wanted to distinguish (discriminate) between a kind of blind discrimination - that is discrimination not knowing what you're doing and acting on it, and conscious discrimination.
Yes I probably projected my own belief system. That was unfortunate.
Don't you think it's better to discriminate behavours though? Shouldn't those individuals be given the chance to change and be forgiven if they decided to do so?
And I agree...
I agree that they should be given a chance to change. By the way, perhaps you did not realize it but my belief is that racist scum is only scum because they are racist, not the other way around. So, if they turn (I mean really turn and not like many Italians simply make a statement like "yeah, yeah, I am not racist") I will be the first to commend them.
italian racist
u are just too ingnorant for your own good, I am from south Italy and if I go to the little village you talk about I will have the same treatment, the same is here in England, in London u do not really feel, try and go out in a small town and then you see but still I accept it althoug I know is wrong. In Italy people do not speak languages if they do not need, go in big city or holiday places and you see how many languages some people can speak, Inglish speak only English so Greek as per normal. I was in Greese a couple of years ago, and I told as a joke to a Greek barman that he looked more like an Albanian (he was blonde) then the real Abanian next to him dark (now everybody thinks that Greak are dark, a bit like Italians stereotype, well he went mental, to be looking like an Albanian for him was a racial abuse, He wanted to pick up a fight, and was a young man, you see prejudices are bedded in any ingnorant mind exactly like in yours.
what the hell
what the hell are you talking about man? I you're going to say something at least say it in proper English and please learn how to follow threads in online discussions. People will think you only went to elementary school.
Please improve your english.
Please improve your english. you really need it.
Anti-Nazi League
There are violent anti-racist groups in France and Britain. Violent and non-violent. Anyway, if you take to the street and say something racist, they beat you up. That does not happen in Italy, because the right-wing is too big. Ok, let's say that your view prevails: zero tolerance for racism. If you say something racist, you go to jail. If you say something racist, you get sued and lose your job. At that point, racism is defeated. People are afraid to speak out and the evil of racism is over. That means you cannot criticize Muslims either. Again, you would get beaten up or arrested if you did. So, Muslims benefit from the situation. And they impose their own form of goverment upon Europe. No more pubs, strip-clubs, no more sleeping around, prostitution etc. Again, the threat of violence or arrest would be too big for you to speak out. But is this situation desirable?
in italy there are
in italy there are neo-fascists at goverment and there are not so much pubs,strip clubs are semi-banned, and prostitution is banned ( but there are berlusconi's prostitutes as ministers),the italian people are the most racist people in Europe and the Pope is more powerful than our politicians.So what's the difference from a Muslim dictatorship?
P.s: maybe muslim countries are better cos they are not racist as Italy and they are not ruled by mafia's men as Berlusconi.
P.p.s: I'm italian
you got a point
I really don't think that things in Italy are as bad as in a Muslim dictatorship but, indeed, Italy is as close as it gets to the Christian counterpart of Muslim absolutism and hypocrisy.
http://www.video.mediaset.it/
this is Italy now
I am proud to be Italian.
I am proud to be Italian. However, I am absolutely NOT proud that people like you are Italian. You are a disgrace to the nation with your absurd comments that maybe a Muslim country is better than Italy. People like you would be better off leaving this country. This is a Catholic country still, don't forget that. If you really really prefer the Islamic ways, perhaps you would be happier in an Islamic state (but don't forget to take Vaseline with you).
Also, I think that there is no need to be so condescending as to suggest people use absolutely perfect English on this forum, when obviously, that poster was writing in a language not his mother-tongue and it was perfectly understandable.
well...
Does one have to be a fascist in order to be proud to be Italian?
Regarding language requirements, these are pretty simple on this site. Language is English (not my mother tongue either) and acceptable level is any level that does not render sentences incomprehensible. The post you're referring to did not satisfy the level requirement.
Who I am
I come from a city in the north-east of Italy. Therefore, I am part of that Italian North, which you seem to hate. My city is also racist and the Northern League is strong. I agree with you that Italy is narrow minded, but it is a great place to live, nevetheless. Italy is fantastic. Of course, you can write what you like in your blog. That is not my business or anybody else's business. I got angry at a British writer who wrote a very derogatory book about Italy, but that was available in all book-shop, so I could not take the provocation. It was on your face, so to speak. Am I patronizing? If I am, I don't do it on purpose. Berlusconi: I didn't vote for him, because he owns part of the media and he has got a conflict of interests. Alessandra Mussolini is not a serious politician. You are right about Bossi. My attitude towards racism is ambivalent. Britain is ages ahead of us. Yes, but they still have a branch of parliament, where men wear wigs. You should be respectful of Italy: that's up to you, really. Italy is nationalistic: yes, but it is also the most pro-European country in Europe. The Italians are provincial, but there are a lot of good things about Italy. You bring money into Italy and not vice-versa. Well, I didn't even ask you what you do with your money...This info is only available to those who look for it. True. I got angry at that British writer, because his provocation was too great. With you, I should have been less aggressive.
Foreign girlfriends
I have had non-Italian girlfriends before and always got on very well. If you love a 'foreign' woman, does that mean you don't like your country enough?
Be happy! Come on Fotios, celebrate!
Your dream of multiculturalism might come true in horrible Italy, before it ever happens in Greece. During my last visit to Crete,I,as an Italian, was surprised to see that you just did not see any non-white in the iseland. There are East-Europeans in Crete, but the majority are still Greeks. By contrast, Genoa and Brescia are less white and less Italian than a lot of other places. Take into account the fact that Italy has the lowest birth-rate in the world, the second-highest immigration rate in the world, and the highest immigration-rate in Europe. Therefore, in the next 30 years, Italy will become a no-majority nation. We are getting to the point that the Italians are surprised to see all those white Caucasians in places like Greece or Russia. I was surprised in Greece. Therefore, if you dream about a multi-cultural society, this country will give you a lot of satisfaction. The Italian population is getting older and the natives will soon disappear. Are you happy now?
Celebrating my ass off!
CMAO!
The British and the French hate the Italians
The British and the French hate the Italians with a passion. If you read the Economist or Le Monde, you will realize just that.The British press is particularly biased. We are entitled to hate the British, the French and any other race. We will stop hating others when some respect is given to our nation. You cannot be racist against the Italians and blame them for being racists.
Give Respect/Gain Respect
I, not having lived anywhere in Europe, could not even begin to pass or judge whether what has been said here is true, but what I do know it that the "we will stop hating you when you stop hating us" attitude will get no one anywhere except to further perpetuate hatred and contempt. This anyway you look at it is wrong.
I see nothing wrong with wanting your nation to have some respect, but you can never gain respect as a nation or as an individual for that matter until you are willing to give some respect. It has to start somewhere.
Hatred breeds Hatred.
British and French Hypocrisy
The British and the French hate Italy with a passion. If you read a British or French newspaper,you will see what I mean. Italy is always seen as a Third World country, a mafia-nation, a corrupt state, and so on and so forth. Why should the British and the French tell me that Italy is racist? What gives them the authority? The funny thing is that anti-racism is used, once again, as a strategy against Italy. Well, whatever the Italians have to say about immigrants, it is nothing compared to what the British and the French say about the Italians.
I thought we had gone through all this...
People do not need ANY authority to say what is in their minds. You are doing the same here - you are speaking your mind. Did I ask where you got the authority from to complain about France or Britain? Racism is a problem associated with Italy in an intimate way because of its daily mass practice by many Italians and certain recent historical facts as well as present political realities; racism exists in Italy even against other Italians that may be black haired or more dark skinned that certain nordic types. Once this whole racist behavior ceases significantly then your claim that it is all a strategy against your country may have some merit. Besides, if the British and the French really hated Italy they would not have been so easily convinced that, in reality, when marching with Hitler you were really against him. So, basically you should thank them for Italy being the size that it is today. You could have easily come out of the war with much less land and rights in the international community.
Lack of respect
The hatred between Britain/ France and Italy should be reciprocal. You can say what you like, but you cannot live where you like.
why not?
Care to explain what you mean by "you cannot live where you like"?
Tolerance for all
Of course,the Italians need to be more open-minded than they are. No more picking on immigrants.Other countries need also to be tolerant. Those who say that Italy is racist ought to look at their own actions. Italy will become a multicultural society in its own time.
Same old, same old
Italy is more racist than the average European country. This is plainly and easily perceived by any non Italian spending some time here. I have not yet met any foreigner living in Italy that has not agreed to this FACT. So, please don't try to divert attention to other countries. Italy will of course do everything in its own time - however, this page is about racism in Italy and will be so until Italy changes that, in its own time.
Hitler?
I was born in 1977, what the fuck do I know about Hitler? Freedom of expression cannot be questioned. But, I find your views full of contraddictions. You, yourself, are racist against the Italians. When the English lose at football, they say that their opponent is racist. Since they have never won anything since 1966, they use the word 'racist' a lot. Italy is a racist country, but so are all European countries. Of course, this does not excuse Italian racism. Finally, all nations preserve their own identity. For example, Muslim nations defend the Muslim character of their people. So, are we racist if we don't want an Egyptian school in Milan? Then, India, China and the Arab nations all have very draconian rules on illegal immigration. Italy is far too soft.
moi?
moi racist? I suppose your definition of racism is something like: "the expression of views that make Italians uncomfortable"
Boogeyman in Italy
Tonite the Italian Sky channel had this movie on:
boogeyman
Guess what the Italian translation of the title was: "Boogeyman - L'Uomo Nero" or "Boogeyman - The black man". Why? Because the monster of the movie is a deformed black colored antrhropoid.
So, this gross and idiotic insensitivity of the Italian translators and TV people basically helped all halloween primetime child audience (along with ignorant sleepwalking adults) associate the boogeyman concept with the "black man" concept.
I suppose this one falls into the "racism due to deep ignorance and idiocy" category.
Racism and immigration
I support the right of every nation to exist, according to its own traditions. European countries have got a right to exist, as much as Muslim countries. Speaking of which, Muslim countries have a strict immigration policy.You cannot go to Saudi Arabia without a VISA. But then, China and India are like that as well. Therefore, it is not blasphemous to argue that European nations,including Italy, have got a right to exist. There are traditions which are unique to all of these countries. Globalism is about destroying national traditions. Notice how, Muslim countries defend their own borders and culture.
I agree, but...
I agree on the right of every nation to exist according to its own traditions. Of course things get complicated when you have traditions that interfere with the right of other nations to do so.
Personally, I think that national traditions are a bad thing - I do respect however the opinion of those who disagree and I guess it all gets settled through the democratic process and voting.
L' "Uomo nero"
Well, it looks like there is no Italian translation for the Boogeyman concept.
Using the term "uomo nero" does not relate to the fact that the monster is black, but rather to a classic Italian fable "evil" character which is called "Uomo nero" (as you can also check on http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogeyman). So the translation is actually correct, and as accurate as possible.
Blaming this to someone's "deep ignorance and idiocy" with such lightness, in itself, a very sign of the same issue :)
Best,
Mario
your argument is pathetic
I had never witnessed so many intances of very weak arguments being presented as the epitomy of reasoning before coming to the illogical land of Italia.
I have previously further commented on the issue of "Uomo Nero" in this separate article here: Boogeyman in Italy
Since you probably won't understand what I am writing there (you would need a background in formal logic which I seriously doubt you possess) here is the bottomline: there is simply no excuse for a society that in the 21st century allows the term "black man" to be used in such a way; that is, regardless of any cultural or historical justification. Even someone like you should be able to see the truth in this.
Thanks for posting the link
Thanks for posting the link to the article, which explains your position better.
I can tell you that personally I have never associated the concept of the "uomo nero" to anything human at all, before reading your post, exactly as the word "boogeyman" does. I agree with you that to the eyes of non-Italian speakers the literal translation will seem really offending.
I am much more worried by the daily use in Italian newspapers of words like "rumeno" or "rom" to identify criminals without even citing the person's name. The expression "Uomo nero" is used in a different way and denotes a completely different concept - it is also quite "old-fashioned" and will be probably used less and less.
I do possess some background in formal logic, and I believe that the meaning is bound to the word use (and Wittgenstein is not so new either). It is also weak to conclude that "black man" and "uomo nero" are being perceived as the same thing just because they literally translate into each other.
I also find your "assumptions" about me quite irritating, and subtly racist as well. As I could not read your other post, I did criticise your insults to the translators, and I continue to do so. They did their job right.
You may criticise Italian society as much as you want, but you can't assume that I am a dumb ignorant Italian racist because I criticised you.
Regards,
Mario
ok then
So, it's nice when occassionaly an Italian person comes along and wants to talk instead of threatening to burn our house with us in it. Please excuse my patronising and condecending comments; they were deliberate. No, it's not a typo. This kind of comments is a very efficient way to cut through your standard civil facade all the way to that boiling "orgoglio Italiano" underneath.
Now picture this Mario: You are a black person, living, working, studying or simply passing by Italy. After a busy, tiring day, you come home, take off your shoes, grab a beer and turn on the telly to check out some movie and relax. The evening movie's intro trailer comes on: "...and now, hold on to your seat as the sheer terror of the BLACK MAN is coming to your screen. Don't move! Don't make a sound! The BLACK MAN is going to get ya!". Nice going Mario! Yeah, let's cherish that tradition!
Perhaps, in your mind, it would be quite normal to expect of black men who live in Italy to fully adopt the dinosaurial Italian culture and even start telling their black children to "be good or the black man will get you" or have them happily watch politically incorrect evening movies on Italian TV channels. I mean, after all, in this context, the term "black man" refers to something other than their father, right Mario? It's like people have these thick insulating walls that neatly and completely separate concepts, emotions and connotations based on context. Well, that is indeed the case with some people but only when the reference is not to them or their loved ones. Besides, in this case, you can understand how, for a very racist country like Italy, some would doubt the solidity of these walls (that is even if they were convinced these walls can exist) in the minds of many pseudo-civil Italianos.
Apologies accepted
Apologies accepted, a polite discussion about things is my only goal :)
Again, I do not cherish the "uomo nero" concept tradition and I already said that its literal translation might be really offensive even if the original meaning is not at all race-related. I hope the term will cease to be used with time (less and less movie titles are being translated altogether, as Italians slowly get used to English).
This said, as your other post also noted the translator did their job right since there is no other alternative term right now, so my opinion is that there was no point in calling them idiots or ignorants: that's it..
Being myself an emigrant, and being married to a foreign girl I am quite sensitive to the themes of this page, which I find really interesting.
I have lived in Italy for many years with my wife, and I have experienced the dumb racism that you talk about and I do hope it will disappear, probably because of the population aging and forced exposure to other cultures of the younger generations. That will hopefully wipe racist thoughts from the younger brains once and for all, even if that will not be easy as race is constantly used by right-wing parties as a way to inject fear into the country and easily gain consent by means of populist and useless measures.
FYI your page has been linked from a page of blatantly racist comments in Italy's most conservative and Berlusconi-owned newspaper
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=327012&page=11
which could explain some of the idiotic comments you have received (and got me here in the first place).
Italy is going to change, but I think it will take some 10-15 years (and a lot of work) to see any actual signs of improvement...
Strongly rejecting any fascist-like "orgoglio italiano", I hope that during your stay in Italy you and your wife will also be able to enjoy all the good things and people that are there, and I hope that they will be good enough to at least balance the disgusting sides of the country :)
All the best,
/Mario
thanks
Thank you for your comments Mario. Much appreciated.
regarding the translators
I don't know why you keep trying to defend the translators. A translator is usually somebody exposed to cultures other than their native one and therefore one expects them to be sensitive to such transcultural issues. I mean they must have watched hundreds of contemporary American movies in their original language and they are obviously aware of political correctness issues; American movies are full of related messages and morals, especially when it comes to racism or the implicitly negative portrayal of black persons.
Furthermore, their position as mass media content producers/editors should normally make them aware of their responsibilities as far as political correctness and general content quality is concerned.
It is only because of a prevailing insensitivity to such issues in Italy that translators and their bosses simply couldn't care less about properly translating movies and other media for a 21st century audience (or maybe they have decided that it is not a 21st century audience they are addressing?).
No options you said? How about just leaving it "boogieman"? I mean Italians already use a bunch of English words in their every day language like "weekend" and "hot dog". Why not this, especially because of the sensitivity of the issue? Why not something less literal? Like "dark terror", "monster of darkness", (words in Italian of course) etc. But no, let's be grossly insensitive or indifferent and just translate it exactly like our grandparents would. Well Mario, maybe an old style restaurant (there are many around here) is a good thing; I really don't know whether the spreading of this mental gerontophilia to other things should make us happy though.
An interesting related article
Racism in Italy
Thank you
Thanks for the link: it is a very interesting article and I will read it when I get the chance. Thank you also for making me feel more Italian. I never felt Italian before I went to London and got insulted for my nationality. So, thanks the Brits and the French as well. But- this is not sarcastic- I will read the article during the week-end. As for the 'uomo nero', well nobody has ever died for singing a stupid song.
I have read the article
Jean-Jaques Colombani is a French idiot. There are French idiots and British idiots (and a lot of nice people too,in those countries). Let me discuss the charges. Italy has got the highest immigration-rate in Europe. That is why you get hostility. Of course, I hope the ignorance will stop.
"Anonymous"
Nothing to do with Italian, British, French, Greek, German, Fotion, Ebonesioum, or any form of racism. But "Anonymous" is very problematic in determining who wrote what, who's views are who's, and what in hells name is going on, especially on a page as 'busy' as this one.
Just a thought.
about threaded discussions
the convention is to treat comments that are signed based on both their particular content and the history of the author and to treat unsigned comments based solely on the merit of their content within the context of the paricular discussion.
It is up the user to sign the comment with a nick or his real name. However, using a nick consistently or even at all is also up to him/her.
Side Effects
I understood this, and that not being "anonymous" was a voluntary action. Which really is fine, I was just noting that while you see an "Italian guy" posting, others have no way of determining whether it is an "Italian guy" or 30 "Italian guys".
I also agree that each topic 'should' be treated within each thread (as much as possible), but sometimes one can see better if they have the 'whole' picture, and in addition it is clear here that the 'threads' can get intertwined in context. It would seem an inevitable side effect.
I was just making a note on the less than appealing side effects; with that said I understand why it is the way it is. It has both merit and faults - as do most things in life I suppose. :)
About the "Italian" guy
So, this guy posted a reply here that:
1. was offensive to me personally
2. showed, that not only he selectively reads what is written here but further that he has no intention of real discussion as he once more repeated accusations against me that are based on a, I believe, deliberate distortion of what I have written on this page
This basically means that he will not be allowed to post on this site any more. He can post his opinions and views on his own blog that he is free to start and maintain today.
My opinion is irrelevant
In truth, it really does not matter what I think regarding who should or should not post on your blog. My opinion is irrelevant. If it is causing you undue stress, then take care of it. This is close to you and very personal to you; I can stand by as a third party where nothing said hits home.
dunno about that
your opinion is not irrelevant to me and I am not stressed at all. On the other hand please understand that posting things that make Italians uncomfortable when you live in Italy can be dangerous. I therefore am quite careful and would not allow some anonymous poster to just come in here and try and distort what this blog is about. I will respond to the rest of the stuff you posted when I have the time (quite busy right now).
Case-specific
I was not trying to imply that my opinion was irrelevant to you, I did not think such; the comment was case-specific.
Call Racism, Racism
As to racism (aka racism based on visual biological differences) it would seem to be not only a valid claim, but readily acknowledged by those who have posted - even when arguing that Fotios should not say such things.
How can you possibly admit that it is true and then call Fotios, wrong for calling it what it is? That is absolutely amazing to me.
You can make all the excuses in the world to justify it, if it is racism then there is nothing wrong with calling it racism - if it is Northern Italian racism, then call it Northern Italian racism.
Whether or not it is arguably 'acceptable' does not change what it is - and I personally think is completely wrong. Racism is absolutely unacceptable in my book, it is sick, twisted, and completely offensive to me.
Further, multiculturalism is not the same thing - whether you are arguing for or against it. I do think that being anti-cultural or culturally prejudiced, does breed racism - it is none-the-less just another excuse.
Dear Fotios, I am not
Dear Fotios,
I am not surprised by what you are describing. But I would say that it is more a behaviour that you find very close to the area where we work. I do not think that in a big city of the central or south Italy is like that. Some people here are not only racists, but also ignorant.
Patience
A
Hi Fotios,
Hi Fotios,
Check this Video, you're gonna like it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRntYx_fc3U
AK
Thanks
yeah, thanks. His views explain why he was elected, in light of the fact that many Italians believe exactly the same crap.
MOVE
simple solution MOVE
Yeah
Thanks for the advice, I am in the process of moving actually (longish one but progressing).
I don't see how my moving is a solution though, as this blog post is not so much about my disappointment with many Italians and the Italian culture in general, as it is about the problem of racism and fascism in Italy. Surely, my moving away would not solve that, would it? On the other hand, I certainly see how this kind of behavior on my part would be compatible with the prevailing tactic of dealing with problems here in Italy: Ostrich-ism, i.e. if I don't see it, it is not there.
you are right fotios. here
you are right fotios. here in italy the situation is terrible and i want to go away from here. the people not only are racist but are religious bigot too. i was born here and i understand you how much is difficult living in north italy. i'm italian but i'm not proud of being italian.
Hi Marcello
Thanks for your comments. You're not alone in the way you feel. For instance I was born and grew up in Greece, yet I am not proud of being Greek. However, I am proud for not being proud. I am proud that I am not unquestioningly, unconditionally and by default supporting a country and its culture, values and way of thinking just because I happened to be born there. I am proud that my spirit and mind have grown enough to understand how artificial and meaningless ethnicities and nationalities are, beyond the practical aspects of resource administration and policy enforcemnent. I am proud to be a human, self-stripped of cultural, racial and social tags, and open to meet and connect with those who think likewise. Together, we look on and prepare the way for what is coming. The dream of humanity since the first moment of its self-awareness: unity, togetherness, love, progress.
you are absolutely right.
you are absolutely right. but i want ask you a thing; in other countries of europe the situation is terrible as in italy or is different?
well
well, I could not tell you much about all or even many of the European countries as I have only lived in a few of them. Obviously you need to live somewhere for a significant amount of time before you can make serious claims about the place in general and especially the people of that place in general.
I have only had significant experiences in a small number of countries. Among them USA which I don't criticise like others (although obviously there is plenty of stuff wrong in the US as well) for the simple reason that, with all their problems, they presently represent humanity's best hope for stability and unity. This is the only country where you don't feel a stranger no matter where you come from. Additionaly it is the oldest surviving democracy, a true democracy and a nation that is trully ethnicity agnostic and open to integration (not just toleration) of all people under a common political and economic umbrella.
The countries that I have lived in are:
Greece: 23 years (born there)
USA: 5 years
UK: 5 years
Italy: 5 years
I also have spent a number of months in Spain and Brasil - countries that I have experienced in a more profound way than the typical tourist, for a number of reasons. As, when it comes to this kind of thing, I am an empiricist, I would find it completely pointless and in fact idiotic, passing judgement to the people of countries other than the ones above. Obviously judging international government policies is legitimate for any country.
So, here is my comments for those countries in relation to Italy:
1. USA: A country where there's a lot of racist people. Many social problems and in paricular criminality. Still a country where there's a lot of non-racist people as well. More importantly a country where ethnicity is not important and people, no matter where they come from, do indeed integrate in the local social fabric. One of the very few countries in the world that can truly become your country no matter what your racial or ethnic background is (and I don't just mean getting a passport)
2: UK: A lot of social problems, covert racism, obvious and accepted social classes, white ghettos. Yet, tolerance for other cultures, open minds, people with a good understanding of the world as a whole and maybe most importantly many people that place principles above personal interest. There are racists but they are marginalised.
Both countries above, are paradises when compared to Italy; from both the political and social perspective. Beyond that they are much richer and more interesting environments to live in, in general.
Greece and Italy I have extensively criticised (and UK in many instances) and those articles can be easily found by performing searches on the site. I have also criticised certain racist aspects of the Spanish society. Brasil is a complex case and as I am still figuring stuff out I would prefer to write something after I have lived there for a few years which I hope will happen soon.
i have to say that spain is
i have to say that spain is a good country. the problem of spanish people is not racism but only the lack of political corectness about racism question. the olimpic pic is the example of that. the basketball players didn't want to insult chinese people but only make a stupid joke.i have an home in spain and the people are very open-minded and tolerant. anyway thank you for your advices.
yeah
yeah, I basically agree with you on that - if you look into my Spain related posts I also note that Spain is making progress in ridding itself from remnants of its fascist past. Still, racism in Spain is strong although most of the time it is of the ignorance type instead of the malignant nazi type.
That's a brilliant definition
I love the definition of "non-racist" that you use. Thanks to that definition, racism is treated like a disease, a bad habit, a vice. "Non-racist" sounds like "non-smoker". Therefore, it implies that people can quit being racist, that they can be advised on how to cure their own racism etc. The definition of "non-racist" implies that you can quit being a racist, that you can give up being a racist, exactly as you give up a bad habit. That expression implies that racism can be cured through education and that racists can become "non-racists". For example, there could be books that help racists to become "non-racists". That's a brilliant definition.
the comic aspect of it
The comic aspect of it: vid
italy is very racist, unhapply!
I'm agree with you. I love pizza, italian language, italian history, pasta but I hate the italian mentality . They are very racists, as mussolin. I'm italo-brazilian, my grandparents were italian, they are gone to find PASTA in brazil....anyway, There are milions of italians in every part of the world, in france, fermany, uk, usa, brazil, canada, argentina, australia...the list is very extensive!!!! Then when someone says or thinks: andatevene al vostro paese" (italians love saying that) they should think what they could do if milions of italians came back to Italy!!! anyway we are every right to be here!!! I have my citizien, and others that have no italian citizien, HAVE TO BE here, because italians NEED them. Who takes care of the olders???? who? Who will build???? ciao a tutti, naturalmente non tutti son così ho incontrato tante persone buone e intelligenti, però mi rattrista vedere che questa mentalità ora coinvolge anche i giovani.
Very valid your argument
Yes, what would they do if all the Italians in the world went home? Very good question!
I think they would probably tag them as non-Italians (because they deserted their beloved country, or some lame excuse like that) and close them in concentration camps. At this point, several old fascist intellectuals would close themselves up in some 70s-styled huge meeting room (with direct connection to big pasta-cooking facility where their centennial mothers cook) and make up some new mythological justifications and excuses for their political crimes.
Yeah Italy is racist and i
Yeah Italy is racist and i can talk cause i see my mom and me had several problem like ur wife, the point is the country is old, the people lives there are old, the politicians are old, thats why they are so bigotry. I moved in uk now, i was too tired to live in Italy, and I'm just 19 years old,in uk the people can see i'm mix race and when they ask me where i come from and i simply answer Italy is ok, they know is possible have mix the race! When i used to live in Italy specially when i was 10-13 years old(so in the middle of the '90s) the people ask me where u come from, and i just said Italy they look me bad and told me yeah but u black.
They forgot they were immigrants as well they had same problem like all the immigrants, and the sad story is: Most of the new generation have got such an ignorant culture,i work as waitress and when we have italian customers they speak just italian, sorry guys no everybody can speak ur language, and when i try to let them know this, they just answer where u come from? me:Italy,them: oh your italian is soo good, me: yeah cause i'm italian!! them: oh i didn't know in Africa they speak italian .....
they think: All black people automatically come from Africa, African is the language of Africa, est Europe is just Romania. Ok not all of Italian people are same, but I'm talking about the 75%-80% of the population.
germans hate them
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77005&st=0
NIG**R!! No entry in coffee shop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsAMrl8HAjU&feature=player_embedded
Wow!
Not that surprised of course but still shocked! This would not have been possible or allowed in any other European country today, especially after the Police was on site. In Italy it was however, and that tells you something about the country and many of its people. If these people only knew how much they harm the country that they supposedly love...
Interesting
I have been researching the living conditions of other countries to decide where I would like to settle down. Either South America, Europe or Asia. I am currently in California. Being an African American, the issue of racism is a consideration. Spain and Italy where my top choices in Europe. I did not realize there was so much animosity within Europe. I have had an Italian girlfriend, from Naples and a dear friend from Milan that I have known for many years. I have had nothing but good experiences while in Italy. But then when you do not speak the language you never known exactly what someone could be thinking. I remember the first time traveling to Germany to see my Italian girlfriend, who just moved there, I was a little afraid thinking I would experience quite a bit of racism. I think I have been to Germany over 20 times now without incident. I have lived in Chile in South America and have traveled the world extensively. There are racists everywhere. But to label an entire culture or country as racist is ignorant. Throughout the world you have these situations. The Argentinians and Chileans, the Taiwanese and the Chinese, the Americans and the Mexicans, the Blacks and Whites, the Christians and Muslims and so on. Even Northern and Southern Italy. Dumb. My last girlfriend was Chinese, actually my last 2 were. And there family and friends accepted me. Same for my Chilean girlfriend and my Muslim girlfriend I had in college from Saudi Arabia. I have friends from all over the world. I have stayed with hosts in Turkey, Argentina, China, Japan, etc. There are good and bad people everywhere. It seems countries have a bad history and have wronged some other group in some way. But I do not think that is an excuse to generalize an entire country or culture in a negative way.
Interesting indeed
So here's a few points for you mate:
1. You must be a pretty superficial reader cuz you're accusing me of writing something I did not write. This page starts something like this: "...a big percentage of Italians in the Italian North are ignorant racists...". How is that "generalizing on an entire country or culture"? Where am I generalizing?
2. Learn Italian, come live in Milan for a couple of years and then we talk. Your tourist experiences and Italian girlfriends are certainly no basis on which to positively judge a whole culture or entire country either.
3. Browse this site, search it for Italy and racism, read and learn. Get one of your Italian girlfriends to translate some of the italian texts and videos you'll find here. Find out who the people who govern Italy today are and what the views of the party "Lega Nord", that is voted by maybe more than 20% of the population in certain parts of Italy, are about africans and non-whites.
4. Look up "white christmas" and Italy.
5. I could keep piling up the points for very long time. Better go read what I have already posted.
Good luck!
Italian Racists
The article was impressive but this question is awesome what would they do if all the Italians in the world went home?.....
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